snackbroken 2 hours ago

Providing an OS feature only to first-party programs is a plainly anticompetitive practice. Using your privileged position in one market (cell phones/cell phone operating systems) to gain an advantage in another market (smart phone applications) that you withhold from your competitors is a textbook case.

  • integralid 2 hours ago

    I wanted to be outraged at apple, but I really can't. Read WinAPI documentation and try to count all "reserved" parameters for example. OS developers build features just for internal use all the time.

    Granted, this is just UI tweak so I'm not convinced it has to be private, but they probably just don't want to have to maintain that forever.

    • snackbroken 2 hours ago

      The key distinction is the withholding from your competitors part. WinAPI may have a ton of features labelled "pls no use thx" but MS doesn't block you from distributing a program that uses them anyway.

    • senkora 2 hours ago

      Yeah, this seems reasonable to me. The better thing to get annoyed at Apple for is being slow to implement web standards. I guess you could make the argument that they are choosing to work on stuff like this instead, but I think that’s a weak argument.

    • lysace 2 hours ago

      Private/secret APIs in DOS/Windows were a prominent part of the US and EU antitrust lawsuits against Microsoft in the 90s/00s.

      • alwillis 2 hours ago

        > Private/secret APIs in Windows were a prominent part of the US and EU antitrust lawsuits against Microsoft in the 90s/00s.

        It mattered because Microsoft had 95% of the operating system market at the time and was using its monopoly position to take over the web, even after signing a decent decree with the US government.

        • lysace 2 hours ago

          Edit: It can probably be argued that Apple is a acting like a monopolist in one or a few areas though?

          The current web monopolist (Google) was coincidentally founded 2 months after the US antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft was decided (july - september 1998).

          Similarly meh results with US vs Google two weeks ago.

      • blahyawnblah 39 minutes ago

        Microsoft doesn't punish you for using those though.

  • brookst 2 hours ago

    Wait so are all non-standard CSS attributes "anticompetitive"? This seems like wild hyperbole.

    Is Google's "-webkit-tap-highlight-color" also anticompetitive? Should we ban the current practice of shipping proprietary CSS attributes while sometimes also proposing them for standardization?

    It's just really hard for me to read that as a legit complaint.

    • kuschku an hour ago

      If you use this CSS liquid glass effect in your app, Apple will reject it from the App Store.

      If Apple uses this CSS liquid glass effect in their apps, it'll pass App Store review just fine.

      Do you see the issue now?

      • ezfe 40 minutes ago

        iOS has many private APIs, this one is no different. The fact it's implemented in WebKit is a red herring.

        • catsma21 23 minutes ago

          you failed to address the point of the comment you replied to.

        • bigyabai 30 minutes ago

          So when Google creates self-serving APIs in a web browser engine, it's anti-consumer and is killing the free web.

          But when Apple creates self-serving APIs in a web browser engine, it's just another private entitlement, a red herring and their right as the proprietor of Safari.

          The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

          • cosmic_cheese 4 minutes ago

            The difference is that Google is by far in a much more dominant position and every dev who leverages Chrome-specific APIs further entrenches that dominance. In the browser space, Apple is the long-trailing runner-up and has far less impact.

            It appears that this particular API is restricted to embedded webviews, too (doesn’t work in Safari), so it has no bearing on the open web, unlike APIs such as WebUSB in Chrome.

    • elaus an hour ago

      You can use `-webkit-tap-highlight-color` on your website or PWA and distribute it any way you want. It will just not work in non-webkit browsers like Firefox.

      What apple does and what the article talks about: They have a CSS property that ONLY they can use, you can't put that in your PWA, it won't work (no matter the browser).

    • phillipseamore 21 minutes ago

      Bad example since "-webkit-tap-highlight-color" is initially from Apple, not Google

    • rs186 an hour ago

      I can install chrome on Windows, Linux and Mac, so I give them a pass. Not to mention that was ancient history.

  • tgv 37 minutes ago

    With whom is Apple competing on their own web pages and apps? And how much advantage does some shiny reflection (which, btw, could also be attained by writing the effect yourself) offer them over that competition? It must be something big and obvious, otherwise there's no way it's illegal, but I can't think of it.

    If you mean "anti-competitive" without referring to monopolies, then, well, every company does that.

    • cududa 23 minutes ago

      Google or any open source map product. And actually, if we use the SCOTUS approved DOJ v MSFT consent decree as precedent, any app that can't use this private API component would be an impacted party.

      I'm an antitrust nerd - 20+ years since I made my first PACER account as a teenager to get documents from interesting cases..

      95% of what people call "anticompetitive" or "monopolistic" has no legal bearing. People don't know the legal definition of those words and bandy them about based on vibes.

      This however, is a very very clear case of violations of precedent. If we look at Microsoft's final judgement https://www.justice.gov/atr/case-document/final-judgment-133 see F(1)(a), H(2)(b), while these stipulations haven't been applied to Apple, if I were in a market dominant position, I'd be super careful about capricious restrictions like the example undocumented API, and behavior that mimics patterns of activity that were seen as actionably sanctionable to similar market dominant forces

    • layer8 13 minutes ago

      It’s a way they can make their webview-based apps look “native” more easily than a third party can. If you try out a third-party app and it looks less well integrated visually than a similar first-party app, then the latter has a competitive advantage because of that.

    • isodev 30 minutes ago

      > With whom is Apple competing on their own web pages and apps?

      With every other app using a web view.

      > without referring to monopolies

      Of course it’s about monopolies. Safari is still “privileged” to be forced default browser. Making an alternative, Apple ensured to be very hard and expensive. So gating any kind of first party feature is a big no.

  • nashashmi an hour ago

    I think there is line that a company can cross: using a locked-down appearance setting to make an app look like it is from the company.

    For example, if there was a glowing light on the edge of the phone that only lights up with stock apps and company apps, and that signfies for security that an app belongs to a company, that is ok.

    I don't consider design/appearance to be a feature. YMD.

  • galad87 2 hours ago

    Only if you consider making UI text unreadable an advantage.

    • snackbroken 20 minutes ago

      I don't think it's an improvement, but having a GUI that matches user expectations is undeniably a business advantage.

  • tshaddox an hour ago

    What are your thoughts on computer hardware which is much more restrictive? Video game consoles, for example, require all code to be cryptographically signed, meaning that third parties can't publish any software whatsoever without the blessing of the console manufacturer.

    • sho_hn an hour ago

      I'm assuming they don't like that either.

      Apple does plenty of bad things, and many are worse than this, but it doesn't mean it's not fair to point out this one is bad, too.

      It all comes down to "the vendor can do things with your computer you can't do yourself" in the end.

      • Muromec an hour ago

        >It all comes down to "the vendor can do things with your computer you can't do yourself" in the end.

        It's not even that. A console vendor that locks down everything behind the TPM helps to not deal with cheaters is arguably fine. A console vendor that is also a game develop and caps the FPS of all games that aren't their own is abusing their monopoly position in one market to gain unfair advantage on a different market.

  • shuckles an hour ago

    True, this is killing innovation in badly written settings panes implemented with web technologies.

  • jjtheblunt 2 hours ago

    Isn't the article saying they added a new css element, but it's not restricted to apple apps only really, just not in documentation yet? for example, this article is preview documentation, of a sort?

    • thefreeman an hour ago

      No, it says it is restricted. You need to set a private attribute on the webview to enable it. And if you interact with private APIs your app will be rejected in review.

      • jjtheblunt 26 minutes ago

        I understand, though conjecture (worked at apple for years) this looks like an imminent "feature" that will become documented.

  • carlosjobim 40 minutes ago

    How is Apple withholding Samsung from making applications for Android? What kind of textbooks are you reading?

  • MangoToupe 27 minutes ago

    How does this give an advantage?

  • ivape 2 hours ago

    Shouldn’t this be easily available in Electron/Tauri and React Native apps?

    • jakelazaroff 2 hours ago

      Electron doesn't use WebKit, so definitely not. Not sure about Tauri desktop, but how would you use it for Tauri mobile and React Native?

      • ivape 2 hours ago

        Woah, TIL. Chromium apparently forked WebKit in 2013. wtf?

        So, if you wanted webviews that could leverage this you’d basically need a native swift app with webviews to get access.

skrebbel 2 hours ago

I like "Alastair's Grand Theory of In-App Webviews":

the main reason webviews in apps have such a bad reputation is because you don't notice the webviews that are integrated seamlessly

  • rudedogg an hour ago

    I think another split is between:

    - people who have gone down the webview path, and know how difficult it is to do well

    - people who have been told they can simply package their webapp into a native application

    You can probably guess which group has more people

  • StillBored 32 minutes ago

    Which is probably exactly why this was added. The cheap way to usually tell if someone is using a 3rd party UI toolkit, is to start tweaking the system theming and see if the application follows some scaling/color changes correctly.

    In this case some subset of apple provided apps weren't following the theme and they fixed it by adding a private css property.

    Vs some other OS vendor that likely removed most of the theme controls so they didn't have to keep fixing a huge pile of 1/2 baked abandoned toolkits scattered across their product portfolio.

  • graypegg 2 hours ago

    "All toupées look fake. I've never seen one that I couldn't tell was fake."

    • _alastair 2 hours ago

      "The Toupée Theory of In-App Webviews" is perfect. I might change it in the post.

      • skrebbel 2 hours ago

        Fwiw I think the personal attribution gives it a nice touch.

        • john-h-k an hour ago

          “Alastair’s Toupee’s theory of in-app WebViews”?

      • graypegg 2 hours ago

        Totally agree with the sibling comment, you should own it! Just made me think of that quote haha.

      • swyx an hour ago

        you write really well OP! please keep it up.

        • _alastair 4 minutes ago

          Thanks! I'm hoping to continue down this path and write up some thoughts on how you might actually achieve seamless in-app webviews at some point but, y'know... time.

          In the meantime (hey, it's already a thread of self-promotion) my last writeup was about the native views WKWebView generates when you use hardware accelerated CSS transforms:

          https://alastair.is/learning-about-what-happens-when-you-use...

  • actionfromafar 2 hours ago

    There's also, in there somewhere, a corollary about how you don't notice the webviews which don't stick out but just don't feel right. Like, someone mentioned Settings app in MacOS might use them because the icons don't load fast enough.

    I can't help but lament just a little bit. Apple used to be about insane polish. Just think about the mentality that created the rounded screen corners on the original Mac. That's just crazy and I admire it.

    • sho_hn an hour ago

      > Apple used to be about insane polish.

      I think that's mostly a brand narrative/myth. MacOS has always had warts at any given time.

      • chuckadams 16 minutes ago

        No kidding. I grew up loving Macs in general, but despite some people's rose-tinted views of classic macOS in the 80's and 90's, I always had uncontrollable pangs of stabbiness every time I had to do anything in the cluttered, clunky, and tiny interface of Chooser.

iruoy 2 hours ago

> It stands to reason that Apple wouldn't have developed this feature if they weren't using it. Where? We have no idea. But they must be using it somewhere. The fact that none of us have noticed exactly where suggests that we're interacting with webviews in our daily use of iOS without ever even realising it.

This is what stood out to me. I've never really suspected webviews and can't think of a place now.

  • JakaJancar 2 hours ago

    I often suspect things in Settings, esp. account/iCloud section to be webviews, just based on how they load (icons appearing a short moment after the page opens for example).

    • ciabattabread 2 hours ago

      When you tap some of the menu items in the “Saved to iCloud” section, they don’t have the normal grey item highlight that happens with the rest of the settings app.

  • dcarmo 2 hours ago

    The App Store app seems to be using web views extensively.

  • alwillis 2 hours ago

    Both Mail and Calendar use web views for starters.

  • echeese 2 hours ago

    I assume they're going to use it on Apple.com, the same way that they were using backdrop-filter to simulate the frosted glass on earlier iOSes

    • bstsb 2 hours ago

      according to the post, it doesn't exist on Safari

  • inc3pt 2 hours ago

    I’m fairly certain Apple Music makes pretty heavy use of webviews.

    • galad87 2 hours ago

      Actually it does not. It used to, but then was rewritten. The Accessibility Inspector app can be used to see what's the class of the UI elements, if you want to check.

  • ivape 2 hours ago

    I’m sure there are many apps like the Apple Store app and parts of the App Store that pull in web views. That’s most likely what this is for. Probably parts of News, Music, Games apps as well.

vlucas 2 hours ago

Nice find!

Apple's new glass UI seems to draw a lot of ire, but I... kinda like it? It feels like the OS has some actual personality again instead of just being flat and boring. I can visually tell the size of click targets now and the buttons are finally visually distinct from text again. I view it as a welcome change. It's not just "nostalgia" either. It has actual utility.

I installed the iOS 26 Beta to test some things on the websites I maintain in advance of it going public, and while there are some issues here and there I think the overall direction to add more personality back into the OS is a good one. Normies will love it.

  • presbyterian an hour ago

    I like the glass effects and aesthetics, but I think the functionality in a lot of the apps isn't as good as it was. A lot of things that were easy-to-reach buttons are now tucked away in menus, and harder to find.

  • OsrsNeedsf2P an hour ago

    > I can visually tell the size of click targets now and the buttons are finally visually distinct from text

    The bar is high

    • vlucas an hour ago

      True, but Apple did this to themselves. Their flat UI also drew a lot of ire for this initially, especially from accessibility concerned circles.

  • akulbe an hour ago

    Count me in the "I think this look is horrendous!" crowd, along with the "What were you thinking, Apple?!?!" crowd.

    It's just terrible.

seydor 2 hours ago

Let's pray this liquid jelly doesnt become a trend

  • brookst an hour ago

    Love or hate liquid glass, the paradigm shift from "UI chrome is a wrapper around app content" to "UI is overlayed on top of app content" seems like the future. It's well aligned with AR and better separates UI layout from content for different screen sizes.

    I'm neutral on this first implementation (some good, some bad). But I think the approach will be picked up by essentially everyone. Good news for you, there's nothing saying the overlay UI model has to be transparent. Some will probably be opaque but still floating.

    • hu3 an hour ago

      I don't buy it.

      First, AR is currently aspirational at best. After decades of failures.

      Second, overlaying translucid UI over content makes separation of UI from content worse, not better.

      Windows Aero tried that 2 decades ago and, while it looked cool, they reverted.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Aero

      • chuckadams 6 minutes ago

        VR is still aspirational, but we already have AR making baby steps into everything. Every time you see a QR code for the menu burned into a restaurant table, you're looking at a sort of AR: the phone sees it differently than you. Then there's games, but that seems to be largely a passing fad, like 3D TV.

        Yeah, it's barely what anyone would call AR, and I love watching the bleeding edge of tech, but on the whole I'm damn glad we're doing this sort of thing at a slow pace.

    • bigyabai 35 minutes ago

      > seems like the future

      Please, please cite sources for this. Without context you are really just drawing conjecture here.

      Apple certainly seems invested in the idea of an AR future. But users do not - ARkit integrations are few-and-far between, Pokemon Go is a dead fad and Vision Pro failed harder than almost any other contemporary Apple product. It seems less like Apple is skating to the puck, and more like they're begging someone to pass to them. But the rest of the industry seems content ignoring the AR industry to invest away from Apple into stocks like Nvidia. Simultaneously, Apple threw away their stake in consortiums like Khronos, signalling a lack of desire to engage in new software standards.

      With how many roadblocks Apple is facing here, I have no idea how you'd conclude that forcing AR on their users is a preferred paradigm.

  • thewebguyd 2 hours ago

    Younger generation is obsessed with nostalgia for Aero/Glass and that whole era's aesthetic. It will definitely become a trend, if not for that then because Apple did it and the industry has lost all innovation outside of "copy whatever Apple does."

    • jeroenhd 32 minutes ago

      As a fan of aero, I hope Google copies the Apple theme with their own aero theme.

      There are some places where I hope Apple improves things like legibility and contrast, but I'll take anything over the bland, flat designs of the Window 8 era.

    • jonathanlydall an hour ago

      Wow, I didn't stop to think how Windows Vista is actually quite close to 20 years old now. It and Windows 7 still feel "modern" in my mind.

  • qgin an hour ago

    I do wish they didn't make it bounce and jiggle so much. It changes the whole thing from looking like glass to looking like a gelatinous blob.

  • Insanity 2 hours ago

    Same boat as you - hope it doesn't but I'm pretty sure it will. Apple is doing it, so other companies will jump on the same bandwagon.

  • wpm 2 hours ago

    Already has

bstsb 2 hours ago

> you have to toggle a setting in WKPreferences called useSystemAppearance... and it's private. So if you use it, say goodbye to App Store approval.

is this true? i know very little of iOS development but i swear i remember watching a decompilation of an app that used various internal APIs to provide animated home screen widgets

  • JimDabell 38 minutes ago

    That would not get through the App Store review process.

  • catsma21 19 minutes ago

    thinking of youtube.com/watch?v=NdJ_y1c_j_I ?

bluSCALE4 2 hours ago

Liquid Glass icons look like crap and it's pretty broken on iOS.

rckt 33 minutes ago

> Whoever it was at Apple that decided to make this a CSS property is a genius because it makes it incredibly easy to provide different rules based on Liquid Glass support

What is genius here? Create something, that nobody asked for, create an in-house CSS property to use across approved apps. Genius? I would simply call this a dirty trick.

There are a lot of things, that they could have implemented, according to the CSS spec. But they decided to spend workforce on this shit. Yeah, they are a business and free to do whatever they want with their money. But I don’t like their choices.

pdntspa an hour ago

"Liquid Glass" ... you mean that effect that Windows 7 did in like 2007 or so?

  • jacobgkau an hour ago

    No, Windows 7 actually did a glass texture, whereas this is just a blur with marketing.

    • dymk an hour ago

      Chromatic aberration ain’t blur

olivia-banks 2 hours ago

Mapbox is such a pretty piece of software.

mschuster91 20 minutes ago

> But my suggestion is this: the main reason webviews in apps have such a bad reputation is because you don't notice the webviews that are integrated seamlessly.

Integration is one thing.

The more important thing is resource consumption: Steam for example always gulps 300MB of my precious RAM for two Webview processes that aren't needed anywhere - and earlier versions actually offered a flag to disable the webviews from getting started. On Android, apps using WebView routinely means that either all other apps get OOM'd or in the worst case, the app itself gets OOM'd from its own web view with very weird side effects when whatever the webview was used for is done.

chmod775 2 hours ago

For those who don't know what the fuck "Liquid Glass effect" is: it's a sort of frosted glass look that apple uses for their UI.

It's being sold as the best thing since sliced bread. Googling it felt like I entered a parallel universe.

  • pdntspa an hour ago

    Windows 7 did it like 15 years ago

    • jacobgkau an hour ago

      Windows 7's had more character.

    • bigyabai 19 minutes ago

      Windows 7 built a design language around it, transparency was never the main attraction.

      Which is smart. Contrast is king, especially on consumer hardware where grandma might not see too well in her late age. It wasn't the glass effects of Vista or Yosemite that appealed to people, it was the high-contrast UI elements and skeuomorphic design elements (neither of which are present in liquid glass).